Shapiro recently spoke with Gizmodo about Colossals goals and her new role at the company.
Below is our conversation, lightly edited for clarity.
Isaac Schultz, Gizmodo: Things are moving so fast.
When we last spoke,the dodo projecthad not even been announced.
There was this open question of, well, how do you even go about de-extinction with birds?
Beth Shapiro, Colossal: Artificial womb technology seems pretty hard.
But that is so cool.
I mean, thats a field that Ive never imagined that I would be in.
But yes, thats probably a long time frame.
The timing of a different species really varies.
When a chicken egg is laid, that embryo is about 24 hours old.
At that point, you couldnt just edit it.
Theres too many different cell types, theres too many cells.
You just couldnt do that.
With the right culture conditions, those cells will survive.
And you’ve got the option to edit them.
That is way easier than an elephant that has a 22-month gestation, right?
Why the switch, and why now?
Its always been attractive.
Im really excited about the potential for developing tools that have direct utility to biodiversity conservation.
Ive seen the group develop and evolve, and Ive just been consistently impressed.
Theyre actually going to get there.
So if we can make some foundational discoveries, they have tremendous impact across biodiversity conservation.
Ive been thinking about it for a long time, but its really hard to leave an academic role.
You have a big lab and a lot of people who count on you.
When is all of this happening?
Shapiro: Thats also something that Im really not in a position to comment on.
Im trying to figure out where everything is.
But thats just not the way biology works.
Biology is dirty and complicated.
Its not like software.
Gizmodo: You mentioned an elephants 22-month gestation.
Shapiro: I dont know.
We dont fully understand how to create an artificial placenta at the moment.
We dont really understand the intricacies of the developmental process.
This is all information that we will learn along the path.
There has to be a lot of time for just resources to be turned into an animal.
But this is something that we will learn.
Gizmodo: You wrote the book on how de-extinction was not possible, once upon a time.
Youve also written about how humans have changed the surface of this planet.
How much has the de-extinction landscape changed since you wrote those books, since 2015 and even 2021?
All of that is stuff that we would need.
But we still dont have an artificial womb.
Shapiro: De-extinction is a moonshot, right?
So how do we get there?
I was at a meeting last week at [Geneva Science and Diplomacy Anticipation].
And that is what de-extinction is for genetic rescue.
There is a moonshot that says, We want to create a mammoth.
Well, what do we need to make a mammoth?
We need advances in actually making edits to DNA and large-scale edits to DNA.
We need advances in cell culture for elephants.
We need to develop an artificial womb.
All of these are technologies that have app across genetic rescue and also even human health landscapes.
By giving us this moonshotby saying were going to get to a mammothwe have created a path.
Colossals working on several extinct species.
So why those species, and how does the introduction of these species to habitats kind of rehab them?
Shapiro: The species are selected because they are really across the tree of life.
We have a bird, we have a marsupial, and a placental mammal.
Shapiro: There are modeling approaches that people have used before, not necessarily making digital twins.
So thats not really useful scientifically.
But it definitely is important.
How much space would you need?
How many other species are there?
What would the feedbacks be as far as the climate goes?
Gizmodo: A part of the proxy mammoth project is generating this ecosystem that hasnt existed for a while.
Colossal sells it as a form of climate change mitigation.
Is that the idea for every species?
Shapiro: Different scientists have different opinions about the potential for impact on climate.
I think we dont really have enough data to know that that would be true.
We dont really understand the number of mammoths that we would need on the ecosystem.
I think for each species, though, there will be different ecological impacts.
And so I think that answers your question, is every animal intended to deal with global climate change?
The same is probably true for a dodo and a mammoth.
Now, for every species there is a different ecological outcome and a different ecological example.
Dodos became extinct because theyre a flightless bird that lays a single egg in a nest on the ground.
Gizmodo: Before we move away from the dodo, I have to ask about your dodo tattoo.
Shapiro: Its here, on my arm.
Gizmodo: Oh, neat.
It looks like a vintage illustration.
Shapiro: It is, my tattoo artist drew it from a book.
Its a scientific illustration.
Shapiro: The foundation for all of these technologies exists.
Its just tweaking them so that theyre applicable to these species that people havent worked with before.
If we can bring back the core phenotypes with a few tweaks, then great.
I say that, its done: weve done de-extinction.
But some people are more purist.
I think those tools are probably the things that are the longest timeline.
Gizmodo: How do you work with the diversity of opinions within Colossal?
How do you have these conversations as youre developing the technologies?
Shapiro: We all have the same final goal.
It makes us keep reading.
It makes us keep engaging people that have different opinions to ours.
It makes us keep having these conversations so that were in a place to be able to learn more.
One thing Im most excited about in this particular role is exactly that.
And I love it.
I am so excited about the possibility of jumping in and learning so many new things.
I feel revitalized as a scientist.
That is that is how science should work.
And if everybody agrees, thats boring.
Its also not going to get us anywhere.
Gizmodo: Can the public expect any more species to be added to Colossals de-extinction agenda soon?
Shapiro: I think weve got our hands pretty full at the moment.
But you never know.
Gizmodo: Anything else youd like to highlight?
Shapiro: Colossal has a fantastic portfolio of conservation programs.
Theyre working across the world with partners like Rewild, for example.
And this work is really critical.
Its really important work that I am very excited to be engaged with and to be pushing forward.
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Turns out, they were the remains of three mammoths from the Stone Age.
